Chanukah Lit
Purim has its own mesechta in the mishna, as does shabbos, succos, and pesach. Chanukah, however, does not. In fact, except for a few pages in gemara Shabbos, there is almost no mention of Chanukah at all in the mishna or gemara.
When Rabbi Yehudah Hanassi was writing the Mishna, he intentionally left Chanukah out of the loop. He was disappointed in the way the Maccabees handled the Judaic Kingdom after taking control from the Greeks. The held on to the ruling branch of government, rather than appointing someone from the house of David to be king.
And here we are, 2,000 years later, still lighting Chanukah candles, still celebrating the military victory of the maccabees along with the discovery and subsequent miracle of the oil.
Has history proved that Rabbi Yehudah Hanassi was wrong to penalize the Maccabees by taking them out of the Mishna? Will future generations of Jews look back at modern-day chareidi rabbis, and realize that they too are wrong for their criticism of the modern-day IDF?
When Rabbi Yehudah Hanassi was writing the Mishna, he intentionally left Chanukah out of the loop. He was disappointed in the way the Maccabees handled the Judaic Kingdom after taking control from the Greeks. The held on to the ruling branch of government, rather than appointing someone from the house of David to be king.
And here we are, 2,000 years later, still lighting Chanukah candles, still celebrating the military victory of the maccabees along with the discovery and subsequent miracle of the oil.
Has history proved that Rabbi Yehudah Hanassi was wrong to penalize the Maccabees by taking them out of the Mishna? Will future generations of Jews look back at modern-day chareidi rabbis, and realize that they too are wrong for their criticism of the modern-day IDF?
posted by Air Time at 10:16 PM
14 Comments:
Air: That was some switch you made between topics. Rav Yehuda Hanassi and the Macabin vs. Charedi Rabbanim and the IDF?
Its difficult for me to lump the 2 together.
Yeah, I agree with Jameel. The two are really equivelant, unless you can go into more detail on what you mean or trying to say.
-OC
My point was this. When we look back at the Maccabees and the Chashmonaim, we look back at them as positive role models who had a holiday instituted that is universally accepted by all religious jews, despite the criticism by the religious leadership of that time.
I compare that to the modern day IDF, and the criticism that they receive from modern day torah leadership, and simply ask if history will judge them more favorably then present-day chareidi leadership judges them.
Well, luckily, history seems to have a lot more reason than most Charedi Rabbis and leadership. History has already judged the IDF more favorably than the Charedim. This is even without saying that the Charedim have no right to judge the brave men and women of Tzahal. They do not serve and refuse to see its merit. In my view, their criticism holds no weight and is completely hypocritical.
-OC
oy.
what religious leadership opposed the macabees? in fact, they *were* the religious leadership!
oc, do not forget that the jewish people would not be here if not for the orthodox.
and it is no secret that the army wreaks havoc on religion. that is why hesder guys shirk half their army responsibilities (serving only 1.5 years instead of the full 3), and the only way they can stay religious is if they are immersed in a yeshiva for 3.5 years.
i do not think the hareidim are not thankful to the army, they just see it for what it is.
as, i may, add, the orthozionists in post-gush israel are now doing. the current mode of thought now is since the army gives back land instead of conquoring more in order to achieve the messianic nirvana of greater israel, i will serve the least amount possible. [never mind that israel and the army has exuded all kinds of non/anti religious sentiment from the onset. why the orthozis choose to 'die on this hill' and no other aspect of religion is the true hypocricy or ostrich-ness, and for another comment.]
so, the orthozis are finally realizing what the good hareidim always knew. about time you joined the club!
I hate to agree in any way, shape or form with anon. But tzinus chinum does work both ways. If everyone keeps bashing chareidim, which is very big here, it doesn't help much. They do positively keep the torah alive in their enviroment, there is alot more positive that can be done, and just talking bad about them doesn't accomplish that.
Yes the Tzahal is a very positive thing in this day and age, but it isn't the tzahal of torah.
do not fight me. you know i am right.
why resist?
Wow...OC and I agreeing on something. Must be time for a shehechiyanu :)
The IDF is in a very weird position today. Just 2 weeks ago, Elazar Stern, The chief of IDF's manpower office (HR), who wears a kippa and lives in Hoshaiya, said:
"Occasionally, Judaism needs to bend to Democracy"
This is a very difficult statement to hear...especially from a kipa wearing person.
Last time I did milluim (a few weeks ago) I had a very weird feeling about putting on the uniform (first time since after the Hitnatkut).
I don't have any easy answers.
Jameel, you and I agree on more than we think. We just approach things in different ways.
And, what is the Army, Anon? I'd love to get your take on it. I'm sure you're an expert on military tactics and strategy. And, since you've served in the IDF, I'm sure you'll enlighten us as to what kind of non/anti religious policies they've instituted, that you've wittnessed first hand, obviously.
I'm a naive Zionist. Please light my path back to righteousness(sp?).
-OC
i cannot serve in the idf, oc. like you, i am not, technically, a man.
as you know, even the orthozi rabbis said women cant go to the army.
though it is surprising that they did not allow that one to slide or the sake of eretz yisrael, like they do so much else.
I can't serve in the IDF, not because I'm a woman but because of my age and marrital status. If I had made Aliyah at age 17-20, I could have and would have served. I know many Dati Leumi women who are currently serving and have served. While it is easier for a woman to get out of serving, the army is starting to be more strict and doing Sheirut Leumi is a prefectly legitimate and extremely contributory alternative. So, don't use your sex as an excuse. And, don't use that ploy to get out of answering the question. Being that you have NOT served, from what sources are you gathering your information about the IDF's alleged practices against the religious? Gossip heard round the table? You make these accusations, please provide some examples or proof to back up your statements.
-OC
that orthozi-ettes go to the army is yet another example of them disregarding halacha and rabbis, even zionist ones.
nothing surprising there.
and i dont find sherut leumi that inspiring either. its merely a way for orthoziettes to somehow show that they are as good as the frei israeliettes who go to the army.
but as is the case so often with the orthozis, they dont have full zionist credentials -- less army if any -- and less observance, generally.
the armys, and israels, disregard for halacha needs no proof. it is a daily and historical fact.
Anon, if Einstein had used that line for his Theory of Relatively, I don't think we would know of him today. That's the dumbest and most rediculous thing I have ever heard. You say the proof need not be brought out since it is a daily and historical fact. Well, that would be precisely why you should bring proof, and precisely why there should be no problem for you to do so. Maybe my blinders are on too tight, so please humor me and bring precise proof to this "daily and historical fact". Unless... of course, you don't have any.
I'm working back-wards here, but how exactly have "ortho-ziettes" (as you so lovingly like to label them.) violated halacha? Again, I'll have to need your proof or some examples of how girls who do Sheirut Leumi are "generally" less religious. How exactly do they have less zionist credentials with their national service? If anything, they are providing a vital service in order to ensure the continuation of the land of Israel. What's you definition of what a zionist is, I wander. And, for you to call their work uninspiring is to show your complete ignorance on these matters.
You make these grandiose proclamations and accusations, yet you have no proof, no examples, no personal knowledge to back them up. Maybe, that's why you have to stay anonymous. Nobody listens to what you have to say.
-OC
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